And after this post, none of the ones who read this blog will be mine.
So here's the deal. Last week's post did not exactly stimulate the conversation I think Clayton was looking for. Now we have to bring in the righty to clean up the mess that was left. (Note to theorists: Don't change your theory to make yourself more right. That just makes things boring.)
I'm going to be the resident bad guy on this blog. I'm going to have really unpopular theories and people are going to say I'm an idiot and get mad at me. That's OK. I mean I pretty much hawk unpopular opinions for a living so I'm used to it.
Alright, so men and women cannot be friends. Before I lay out the parameters of my argument, I should kind of explain why I think this in the first place. Where I grew up, boys and girls were not friends. Girls were for kissing. Guys were for playing baseball with. There really was no middle ground. There was a girl who grew up across the street from me. We were the same age, same grade, our families took trips together. We were never friends. It just wasn't done. I can't imagine how my friends would have made fun of me for playing house or dress up with girls. Never would have happened. I don't think we had any real interest in girls until we figured out we could date them. Then we went straight into trying to spit game. Once the game starts flowing, true friendships are not developed.
This was just how things worked. I never questioned it. Never knew it was normal to have friends who were girls. It wasn't until I got to college that I even thought of that kind of relationship as a possibility. Once I realized this was an option, I began to question myself. To think I may have somehow gained a warped perspective of male-female relationships, been scarred at an early age, and become a complete social misfit. (A quick survey of my relationship history may argue that this is indeed true.) I honestly thought I was weird. As if I had awoke to realize that all this time I had been sick or crazy or weird.
Then I realized that I was the only sane person in a world of insanity. I was right and everyone else was wrong.
Here's why.
A friend is someone that you would go to with a serious, personal issue to seek advice and counsel or just to have a listening ear. It is not an aquaintance that you had class with one time or someone who knew your roommate and came over to watch a basketball game at your apartment who then Facebooked you. I hate to break it to you but 95% of your Facebook "friends" are not your friends. They are acquaintances, but society tells us that it is mean to call people by that word. Just say this is "my friend." But doesn't that cheapen the basis for real friendships? The more and more people we try to be friends with, the less and less we can invest in each person.
So the first part of the theory deals with what actually constitutes a friend.
Men and women cannot develop this kind of relationship without developing romantic feelings for one another or in some way being motivated by romantic desires. The second part of the theory deals with what motivates us to develop this kind of relationship. Men and women are meant to procreate. It is how our species survives. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to a member of the opposite sex. It's just that the moment that attraction develops between two would-be friends, the friendly parts of the relationshp are totally obliterated. Romantic feelings always supercede friendly ones. (Incidentally, this is why phrases like "bros before hoes" are completely ridiculous. Does anyone know one guy who puts bros before hoes? Not if that guy wants to successfully obtain and maintain a girlfriend.) There is no fighting this, folks. It is pretty much natural selection in action. We cannot fight our basic natural instincts.
So guys and girls either become "friends" in the first place because one of them is attracted to the other one. Or, in the alternative, they will not be able to develop a true friendship without one of them falling for the other.
There is also the corollary theory of transference. This is when you try to be "friends" with a member of the opposite sex because you are attracted to one of that person's friends. This is also not at true frienship because it is based on your ulterior motives. This is the case even if your motives are benign. For example, as was brought up at lunch last week, Kristen asked me if we were friends. I explained it to her like this. I am friends with Clayton. If Clayton and Kristen had not been dating as long as I have known him, I might not even have the privilege of knowing Kristen. That doesn't mean I don't like Kristen. I think she is one of the coolest people I know. It just means that our relationship is based on me being friends with Clayton. The theory of transference applies to that situation.
Friends purely for the sake of friendship. It doesn't happen, can't happen, won't happen between men and women. That's the basis of the theory.
To put it in classical logical terms:
A friend is someone that you would go to with a serious, personal issue to seek advice and counsel or just to have a listening ear.
Men and women cannot develop this kind of relationship without developing romantic feelings for one another or in some way being motivated by romantic desires. (See also the theory of transference.)
Therefore,
Men and women cannot be friends.
That's it. That's the argument. Comment away. Disagree. Tell me you never liked me anyway. You won't likely talk me down but we can now begin the discussion.
Sunday, March 22, 2009
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14 comments:
To an extent I agree with this theory, but I think it needs a lot of qualifications, and I can't say I agree with it 100%.
1. My first thought is that this is a very subjective theory, evidenced by your need to clarify your upbringing before actually stating the theory. Given your personal upbringing, this theory makes perfect sense as it relates to you. But what about people from different upbringings? I grew up and there was a girl who lived around the corner who I became friends with. There were no romantic feelings involved at all...we were 8-10 years old. Didn't exist then. So we were friends purely for the sake of friendship, nothing more. This is just how it was. I never questioned it. Never knew it was not normal to have girls as friends.
1b. I will say, however, that once I realized that she was, in fact, a girl, I made a point to stop being friends with her. So I concede to your theory a bit in that regard.
2. In 8th grade a girl I became friends with a girl, purely for friendship because I wasn't attracted to her at all. I didn't realize at the time that she had a big crush on me, and thats initially why she wanted to be friends with me. I guess once she realized I wasn't interested in her in that way, she decided it was okay if we were "Just friends." And we were - just friends. Never anything more.
2b. So once again, I would agree with you in that romantic feelings often spark a friendship, but friendship can remain (at times) when that romantic feeling is gone. I feel like this idea is a bit lacking in your theory (actually its completely lacking), and it should be accounted for.
2c. I considered the girl in 8th grade a real friend. Granted, I didn't share with her things I shared with my guy friends, but the friendship was genuine.
3. Given that this theory is written from a male perspective, I'm curious if women feel the same way.
4. I think you should rethink the title to your theory. You say in the title, simply, "Men and Women Cannot Be Friends." Later on your say "Friends purely for the sake of friendship" doesn't exist. I disagree with your title (given my "upbringing" and personal experience), but think adding "for the sake of friendship" helps qualify it.
5. Yes, a friend is someone you would go to with a personal issue or concern to seek advice or counsel. But is this all a friend is? This is the only description you offer for friendship, which conveniently fits perfectly with your theory. What about other qualities of good friendships? Perhaps a guy/girl friendship could fit into those? Or is what you listed here intended to suggest that it is the ONLY quality that truly defines friendship? If thats what you intend, then perhaps we need a theory about what true friendship is?
6. What about gay guys/lesbian girls?
Actually, in regard to point 4 above:
Even saying "for the sake of friendship" doesn't help the theory. Take my example of the girl in 8th grade who had a crush on me. That sparked the friendship, agreed.
But once she realized there would be nothing romantic, I would argue that we remained friends "for the sake of friendship."
Maybe saying "Men and women can't BECOME friends just for the sake of friendship" would be better.
alright...we all know that i have to reply to this post because i am one of those guys who hangs out with a lot of girls.
brent and i have discussed this theory on a couple of occasions. here is my thought(s)...
I would agree in saying that 9.5 out of 10 friendships with girls have started with some sort of attraction from either or both ends BUT in the case of me and a couple friends who are girls that I have known since middle school, those attractions turned into a genuine friendship. I would never consider dating either of these two women at this point in my life and I (because I have discussed this with the both of them recently) know they would never date me either. I know this friendship STARTED with an attraction but it ended with something that now I can go to both of them for advice and counsel on certain things that I wouldn't necessarily go to a guy for.
I would also say, because of the way I was raised, that I do a better job than most guys at relating to girls. (strange statement but let me explain)... I grew up with no real presence of a father for 7 years of my life and then got a step father who knew nothing about raising a boy because all he had was a girl. Therefore, my mother was all I had so she brought me up how she was raised and the way she saw things. I guarantee you that that has played a huge factor in how I both see things and people in the world. My mom is one of my best friends. Most guys would say that about their dads but my dad was never there. Not saying this as a sob story but this is the way my personality and my line of thought works because of the way I was raised. That in no way changes my attraction to women because as most or all of you know, I have a very healthy and frequent attraction to women.
EDITORS NOTE: I had a formatting error in the previous post, hence the deletion and re-post.
I agree. I also think that, despite what they say, Brian and Michael's responses agree with the original theory as well. Let me explain...
"Men and women cannot develop this kind of relationship without developing romantic feelings for one another or in some way being motivated by romantic desires."
I think Brian's case of being friends with the girl before the "age of romance" should be thrown out. It's like arguing that 13 year olds are great drivers because they never crash; they also never drive. His 8th grade crush-friendship was developed through a motivation of romantic desires. Brent's final position only argues for the development of a friendship.
Michael, you state that you have two girl friends you would never date. Both started as attractions. So, the friendship developed through the motivation of romantic desires.
Perhaps the theory can be addended to include for the post-attraction era (aka Getting shot down and still being friends), because that definitely happens. But I think as is, Brent's theory is pretty good.
Okay so you knew this was coming...
Although I don't even know where to begin. I think based on Brent's standards of friendship, I am friends with most of the guys who read this blog. I became friends with most of you through the BSU. I was also not the kind of intern that went looking for dates. I did not become friends with any of you because I was hoping one day to date you or your friends. I became friends with you because I cared for/loved you all, because Jesus loves me and wants me to love/care for others. Paul says in Galatians 6:2, "Carry each others burdens and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ" I can't seem to find where Paul ever said we were only suppose to carry the burdens of people of the same sex. To me, carrying burdens is the same thing as "A friend is someone that you would go to with a serious, personal issue to seek advice and counsel or just to have a listening ear".
I'm not suggesting that being friends doesn't lead to attraction with some people, but I am suggesting that I believe it's possible to be friends and not develop romantic feelings.
For every 1 guy that I was friends with, that I found myself later attracted to, there are probably 6 guys that I was never attracted to/or never considered dating.
Perhaps this is a gender difference, I don't know (both genders feel free to respond), but I don't think that girls upon meeting a guy, immediately determine whether they are datable or not and then proceed to act accordingly.
Growing up I discovered painfully at times that girls are conniving and manipulative and like to talk crap behind your back, and hold grudges. I found that guys were much more honest and willing to have deeper, intellectual, and at times more meaningful conversations than most girls, so I developed friendship with guys. (again, not to date them, but just to have friends) - thats my background/history and is ultimately why i disagree with brent.
Brent- does this mean we're not friends? I thought this whole not being friends with girls was something you were working on!
Michael. About going to a girl for advice you wouldn't get from a guy. If the advice is about another girl i think this is a horrible strategy. The girl you are seeking to ask questions probably is jealous and cries after you leave because SHE wants you so bad. This is a classic romantic comedy plot, boy likes girl and talked to best friend (and only friend) about girl he likes. Friend girl is hurt to the core as she tries to give advice. Of course in the movies friend and boy fall in love. Seriously, just because someone SAYS they don't have feelings for you doesn't mean that is TRUE. Who hasn't lived a situation where you had someone tell you they liked a particular person then you heard that person adamantly deny the allegation in front of that person or a crowd. Again, just because someone says they don't like you doesn't mean that's true.
I agree with Brent but Amy does have some good thoughts I need to have addressed by the theorist. Mostly the ones about the bible not teaching being specific about same sex counseling and burden bearing (in this specific scripture).
I also see a need for addressing post-friend-development friendship.
I think people misread some of my response.
I will say this. In general, this theory works out great and I totally agree. BUT...
Chad: I wasn't saying I didn't agree with Brent because in many cases I do. I said that the friendships developed through the attraction but as we all know, attractions don't last a lifetime. I am friends with these two girls because of an initial attraction. Now that middle school years have passed, those attractions aren't there anymore. We can both now just be friends. The motivations at this point are pointless in those friendships. I could get to know Michael Jordan because he's MJ but I would imagine that after years of knowing someone, those things pass which allow for true friendships to build. (My illustration may have been bad but I hope you get my point).
Clayton: This advice could be a number of things. 9 times out of 10 I would ask another experienced guy for advice. Some things guys will never fully understand and that is where a second opinion comes in handy. The Usher "You Make Me Wanna" cliche' is just that. A cliche. (If you don't understand listen to the first verse of the song) The fact that you are basing your comment off of a movie (a romantic comedy at that[one of the least reputable film genres in existence]) and not off of real life is exactly my point.
And to be frank, girls care a lot more than guys do in general about things. I can come to a girl and expect some sort of empathy or sympathy instead of "that sucks man" which is definitely needed sometimes but I would say maybe 10% of my guy friends in my life have asked me how I was doing and really wanted to know more than just "good." Now that seems like a sob story but those are the situations I have grown up with. And maybe its because all you guys have had a group of guys they could always go to and have meaningful conversations with throughout your lives. I haven't. Simply the facts. So who else am I supposed to go to but girls and that is what I have grown accustomed to. The fact that I don't immediately look for that from guys I think is a product of going through life living with 2 women (mom and sis).
You Make Me Wanna by Usher
Verse 1
Before anything came between us
You were like my bestfriend
The one I used to run to when me and my
Girl was having problems (thats right)
You used to say it would be okay
Suggest little nice things I should do
And when I come home at night and lay my head down
Sll I seem to think about is you
And how you make me wanna
(Michael, if you wish to make obscure Usher allusions, please provide a link. Thanks.)
I will respond to all of these comments soon. I think some very good objections have been raised.
First, let me apologize for my extreme tardiness to this blog. Now, onto my post.
I am tempted to agree half heartedly with Brent on this, but I do have my reservations. There are certain other considerations that could/should be taken into account. For instance- what about coworkers? Kristen and I worked together for 3 years as Orientation Leaders. After a few months of knowing each other, Kristen and I became very good friends. I talked to her about serious things and asked for her advice on several instances. I had no intentions of dating or trying to date Kristen during this time, and I'm pretty sure she was never attracted to me in a romantic way. Plus, I knew Kristen well before Clayton and I became friends, so it was not a "transference" type thing. So, here is one example of where I was not trying to date her (or vice versa), I wasn't trying to date one of her friends when we became friends, and her friendship wasn't transferred to me. Is this situation an acceptable example to oppose your theory? Or does the fact that we met through our job negate our friendship as a natural occurance and move it to one of a more obligational nature? Granted this is all from my point of view...for all we know, Kristen might have been in love with me! We DID have countless dinners together at the Top of Lenoir...doesn't it only take 3 dates, VZ?! (j/k Kristen!)
So, while I think that it is VERY HARD for guys to be true friends with girls without external motives, I do think it is possible.
Ooooh, it seems like I've stumbled into a pretty interesting conversation. Even though I may not know everyone, I feel like this needs another girl's point of view.
I'll start with high school. After switching to a new school, I had a choice of being friends with girls who had all the personality and demeanor of "the plastics" from Mean Girls, people who would rather do homework than have any sort of social life, or the guys. In my case, many of my friends (using Brent's definition) in high school ended up being guys, only one of whom I was attracted to and did not meet until my junior year, thus negating the "transference" part. Even discussing it now, there was never any question of any attraction, we all saw each other as good friends, almost like brothers and sisters.
In college, there were much more options in the way of girl friends, but I still had guy friends (although not as many). True, there were more guys who fell into the category of an initial attraction that turned into platonic friendship, but there were a significant amount where attraction was never an issue on either side. Granted, I don't know how being in a co-ed, christian a cappella group that can be as close as a family fits into your theory (maybe it falls along the same lines as having the same job like Billy was talking about).
Moving on into seminary, which most people have a much more conservative view on male-female friendships. Even though I had an even smaller ratio of guy friends to girl friends, all of my guy friendships (with the exception of one) were the most obviously platonic friendships on both sides. What I found interesting about seminary is that guys tended to be more upfront with exactly what they were thinking right from the start, so there was never any opportunity most times to even develop an attraction.
From my experience, I initially did not seek out guy friends through attraction or to "date them" as Amy said. Learning this from the start made it easier for me to be able to naturally develop platonic friendships apart from initial attraction or transference. I'm not saying that attraction has never played any part in my friendships, but I can name several that are exceptions to this theory. Therefore, I suggest that one's upbringing/past experience with opposite sex friendships early on in life has a great hold on how their friendships develop. Granted, I have seen how this has changed as I have gotten older and continues to change as friends grow older and get married (regardless, marriage will change any male-female friendship significantly and any friendship for that matter).
Also, it may be pertinent to consider the reasons males and females become friends with members of the opposite sex. From a girl's point of view, I appreciate being able to get an honest, straightforward answer from my guy-friends without causing me to continuously over analyze situations, like conversations with girl-friends can cause. Most of my guy friendships tend to be lighter and more fun, because they don't get as offended as girls do when you joke around (or they just don't show it). One of the best parts is getting to have an insight on what guys really think (I'd love to hear a guys view on that). From what I can tell, and what Michael said, girls do tend to be more empathetic and are usually more at ease with talking about emotions and whatnot.
Michael: It really happens. I would give real life examples but I won't want to air peoples business on the blog. I will talk with you about it at some point. And about romantic comedies. The producers, directors, and writers of these films put their thoughts, beliefs, and desires about life into these films just as much as other commercial movies. If the plots and story lines of these movies were not "real" in some way and didn't relate to people no one would go watch them. To say they don't mean anything is to deny the writers and staff of these productions their ability to create feelings and art with their movies. Why would Usher write a song about something that no one would relate to?
quoting michael. "And to be frank, girls care a lot more than guys do in general about things." What does this mean? what things? basketball? muscles? etc... Also to care about something and the amount to which you talk about it are not directly related. I think i see what you are saying but you didn't say it well here.
Get some new guy friends. I understand your point about your childhood and how that could teach you to rely and seek advice from females. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But you need to seek the advice of guys that care about you, want to see you succeed, and are mature enough to be able to listen and offer counsel. Those guys exist. Quit looking for this in people that aren't ready to do it. Call me or Eddie. Just as I would call you.
To help Brent with billy's comment about being Kristen's friend. An easy argument can be made. Friends through an organization or job = coworkers. coworkers who spend 20+ hours a day together (i.e. orientation or summer camp) communicate well, depend on each other for support, and share life experiences. After the period of coworker with Kristen was over your connection to her was largely through me. Not that I was your only connection to her but if not for our friendship your relationship with her would likely have waned. Also, you stood on my side of the wedding not hers. :)
Brent please address this "after the romance was dead we were able to still be friends business".
Brent,
(Loto told me about the post so I read it and had to give my two cents). I think your theory is quite sad and you're missing out on a great aspect of life. (Granted I may have been raised in a different setting than you).
I really hope you're mostly just playing "devil's advocate" on this one. I'm not super close to any of the guys posting on this blog but I do have a select few number of very close guy friends. A few of them, I'd agree...have had romantic feelings for me, or vice versa...but there are a few where it's never been the case nor has transference. It's less likely, but possible.
Even if you gain a friendship out of "transference," I've become friends with plenty of those people to not have anything happen with the object of affection...later having the object of affection drop and no longer be of interest but still have the "middle man" as a friend with no romantic feelings on either side. These CAN BE (but are not always...lots of "if, then" statements here) just as valid and worthwhile as a friendship that comes about "naturally."
Loto, but especially Amy, pretty much summed up the rest of my feelings (good job!) Especially that last part of Amy's.
As several other people have commented... I definitely think that though it's more likely that guy and girl friendships foster an attraction on one side or the other (or both), purely platonic relationships can be developed outside of transference.
Regardless, if I had to limit my friendship to females(and don't take this the wrong way ladies,the same could be said if I only had male friends), my life would be much less joyous and I'd be a much temperamental, moody person. I think there are things guys can offer to friendships that girls cant and vice versa. Sometimes girls are just way too mean and complicated and sometimes guys have big annoying egos and joke around too much. The former typically made me the kid growing up with more close guy friends and just one or two close girl friends.
It's way too late/early to be commenting...can you tell I have a day off tomorrow?! I'm also on muscle relaxers! WOO!
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